AT the age of 96, some believe Tun Dr Mahathir Mohamad should have retired completely from politics.
Being prime minister twice is considered good enough, in addition to Parti Pejuang Tanah Air (Pejuang) losing badly in the 15th General Election. However, Dr Mahathir has his own reasons as to why he is 'forced' to continue working hard.
Follow Dr Mahathir's reasons on this and his views on Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim, Datuk Seri Najib Razak, Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi in addition to the current unity Government, economic and political issues as he speaks to Berita Harian.
Question (Q): How do you see the Prime Ministerial selection process after the 15th General Election (GE15), the formation of the Unity Government and the appointment of Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim?
Answer (A): In this election, none of the parties received sufficient numbers to establish a government. So there is a need for the party that secured the largest number to attract cooperation with other parties so that their numbers exceed half of the 222 seats in the Dewan Rakyat.
Cooperation like this is not because of unity, this is a combination. When there is no winning party
one way to establish a government with a majority is to have a coalition. The coalition does not mean 'unity' because each has its own interest. A coalition is a way to get a government that will be able to defend (itself) in the Dewan Rakyat because it has a majority.
Q: After 24 years, Anwar has finally become Prime Minister. What is Tun's expectation about Malaysia's prospects under him?
A: I can't guess what kind of government, but we can see that Anwar's focus is more on his retention as Prime Minister. Regarding plans to overcome the country's problems, such as the effects of the pandemic, economic decline and political instability, all these have not been given attention by the Anwar government.
Q: Does Anwar have the ability to lead Malaysia to face the challenges of the economic recession forecasted next year?
A: When I became Prime Minister for the first time, I took a two-month vacation. At that time, Anwar as the Deputy Prime Minister was given the responsibility of 'acting Prime Minister' (acting PM), but it seemed that he could not deal with the problem.
After that, there was a financial crisis in which the ringgit depreciated. At that time, Anwar was also the Finance Minister. The way he dealt with the problem of the falling ringgit value was to follow the opinion of the IMF (International Monetary Fund) and the World Bank.
I think that if we followed the IMF and the World Bank, we will go bankrupt and will not be able to implement the country's economic policy, but Anwar had no suggestions other than following the IMF and the World Bank. Because of that, I had to take over the duties of the Finance Ministry, I was looking for a way to save the country. If Anwar is allowed to come to power and implement his policies, I am sure we will not be able to overcome the financial crisis at that time.
Q: Based on this past experience, does Tun see Malaysia under Anwar facing the same risk?
A: At that time, it seemed that he could not find a way to overcome the crisis. Whether in the future he can create a way to deal with the problems facing the country, we have not been able to determine, but based on his experience when he was Deputy Prime Minister (and) showed his abilities, I am afraid.
Right now the country is facing many problems. First, the impact of the pandemic. We also find that the economy has deteriorated badly, and the political situation is unstable. The people are still not happy with the state of the country. So many problems need to be addressed by Anwar's government. Whether it is possible or not, we will see it in the near future.
Q: Many are of the opinion that Tun does not want Anwar to be Prime Minister. Is it true and why?
A: It is up to the people and the party to choose him, but I am worried about his abilities, and whether he can lead when we are facing many problems.
Q: At a press conference on Sept 22 1999 when commenting on the accusation of sodomy against Anwar, Tun said '... this man cannot be allowed to become a leader in a country like Malaysia'. Is the stance permanent?
A: That (the sodomy issue) is played up by the international media, especially Israel. Israel (Israeli media reported that), for the first time Malaysia elected a Prime Minister involved in sexual freedom. That's why even at that time, I think people with such morals should not become Prime Minister.
Right now, I still have the same opinion, but we found out that there is an amnesty system in Malaysia. If the quarters involved had forgiven Anwar, we have to accept the fact that his background can no longer be taken into account.
Q: Tun was also involved in Anwar's pardon. At that time, why did Anwar agree to be pardoned?
A: At that time, we were competing with Datuk Seri Najib Razak's government. Between Najib's dreadful government and Anwar's problems, I think the main thing is the awfulness of Najib's government. Because that is more dangerous, I have to cooperate with all parties, especially the opposing party that used to be hostile to me to bring down Najib, that is the most important thing.
That's why I cooperated not only with Anwar but with the opposing party that used to be hostile to me. We assess which is worse. Because we think Najib's government is worse, we have to cooperate with Najib's enemy, even though that enemy used to be my enemy too.
Q: In the Dewan Rakyat, Anwar managed to prove that he obtained a two-thirds majority and became the first Prime Minister in 15 years to obtain such support. Your comment Tun?
A: The Prime Minister needs to get more than 50 per cent of the votes in the Dewan Rakyat. I am sure that when this coalition government is formed, he will still have more than half. He can win (vote of confidence), but what is unusual and causes many people to be upset is the agreement (Memorandum Agreement between Pakatan Harapan (PH) and the coalition of parties supporting the formation of the Unity Government) made between them so that everyone must support Anwar. If not, action will be taken.
Actually, in law, every representative of the people is free to express his opinion, there can be no restrictions, agreements and so on, but that is what is implemented. Even without that agreement, I am sure he will be able to confirm his position as Prime Minister, but when an agreement or condition like that is made, he negates the freedom of the people's representatives.
Q: How does Tun see the formation of the PH, Umno and Barisan Nasional (BN) collaboration government?
A: It is strange because we know that Umno in its (annual) general meeting decided not to be with Anwar or DAP at all. Now, this is not only cooperation but goes towards supporting their enemy as Prime Minister and working with DAP.
Q: Does this send a negative message to voters, especially young voters, seeing political parties are not sticking to their positions?
A: I found that now in the election, promises were made. After winning the election, promises are set aside and actions contrary to promises are implemented. It means that this government does not respect the promises it made to the people.
The people are of course disappointed because they support the attitude and policies of the party or candidate, but when they win, they set aside their policies and promises. This gives the impression as if though the election is not effective in determining which party will become the government based on good promises. They may do things outside or against their promises.
Q: Tun once predicted that Umno would only be able to be in power until 2020, and other Malay parties would also not get support. It is now a reality based on the performance of Umno, Bersatu and Parti Pejuang Tanah Air (Pejuang) in GE15. Does it mean that race-based parties are no longer relevant?
A: That is not true because voters are divided by race. They also live in certain places. For example in the city, the people are Chinese. Outside the city, the population is Malay. If we put a Malay candidate in the Chinese area, he will not win. Similarly, if the Chinese are placed in rural areas, they will not win either.
It means that voters still stick to race. They vote by race. If it is not from their race, they will not vote. That is why political parties also need to take into account the feelings of voters. Voters want their race to be recognised by choosing a candidate from their race.
The problem is, if we want to eliminate racism, we need to eliminate it among voters. Let's say in the city, the population is more or less equal between races, there are Chinese, Malays and Indians. It is the same outside the city, but that has not happened yet.
We still see in the city, most of the voters are Chinese and the candidate must be Chinese. It is even considered that this is a Chinese area. The countryside inside the village is a Malay area. We are separated at the voter level, not the party level. If we don't want to follow the sentiment of the voters, we won't win. If we put candidates in a city made up of various races, the ones who will win are usually people of the same race as the voters. Likewise outside the city.
Q: Ahead of GE15, Tun mentioned that if PH becomes the government, there will be no focus on practising the Islamic way of life. Will that happen considering the current government led by PH?
A: That is my answer to Najib's claim. When he lost in GE14, he found that the winner was a non-Malay majority party. With that, he proposed to establish a Malay Muslim government. In that way, he broke the unity. When he said that, the Muslim Malays who were in the PH government decided to jump into the party proposed by Najib. With that, the kingdom collapsed.
We see actions taken by political parties are based on the sentiments of voters. If they think the voters fear that the government is not a Malay government, then they use that to bring down the government by pulling the Malays out of the government. It's all racially based.
Q: On the appointment of Cabinet members, what is the effect of Anwar appointing Datuk Seri Dr Ahmad Zahid Hamidi who has dozens of corruption charges in court as Deputy Prime Minister?
A: It should not have been done because he is facing court action and there is a possibility that he will be found guilty and punished. Such a person should not be given such a high position because the Deputy Prime Minister is the person who will take over from the Prime Minister if something happens to him (the Prime Minister).
So we will have a Prime Minister still facing charges in court. People see that because he is the Deputy Prime Minister, the court cannot take action against him. This is legally wrong because the law does not take into account who we are. This will interfere with the court in making a decision. Maybe they will get pressured and the law might be waived. So this means that in our country there is no 'rule of law'.
Q: Perhaps Zahid was appointed to ensure the stability of the government. What is Tun's view?
A: Earlier in GE14, Najib as Umno President after losing and with the possibility of being taken to court, resigned. Zahid should also do that because he faces the same problem as Najib, so he should not hold any position. Only after that, we found that the court was not rattled by the pressure, that this person was a 'pembesar' and the law for 'pembesar' should not be applied like ordinary people. This violates the concept of the 'rule of law'.
Q: Does Tun agree with concerns of certain quarters on Anwar holding the Finance Ministry portfolio, fearing abuse of power like Najib is risked being repeated?
A: It used to be that when PH made a manifesto, among (pledges) the Prime Minister could not hold another portfolio. When Najib became Prime Minister and held the position of Finance Ministry, many mistakes were made. For that reason, we think that because the Prime Minister is so powerful and can do all kinds of things if he is given the right to manage the country's finances, there is a high possibility of misuse of power.
Q: Does Tun see the pairing of Anwar as Finance Minister with Rafizi Ramli (Economy Minister) and Tengku Datuk Seri Zafrul Tengku Abdul Aziz (International Trade and Industry Minister) as having the potential in leading Malaysia out of the post-pandemic crisis?
A: Before the Cabinet was formed, there was a suggestion from the public that he choose a minister who might not be a representative of the people, that is, (to) have certain expertise. This is because the current economy is different from before, it is difficult to deal with because there are new ways such as IT (information technology), AI (artificial intelligence), and 'bitcoin'. So, only an expert in this field can handle all these problems.
That's why people think that if you want to choose a finance minister, choose someone with expertise even if they are not a representative of the people. He can be made a senator and appointed, but we find that the old way of giving a place to politicians is still practised. For example, some ministers who lost in the election were reappointed through senatorship to become ministers.
This contradicts the opinion of the people, who through their votes, rejected this person, but we deliberately rejected the opinion of the people and do something that the people don't like.
Q: Does Tun see today's government as being able to remain stable, and survive the entire term through the combination of PH, BN, Gabungan Parti Sarawak (GPS), Gabungan Rakyat Sabah (GRS) and others?
A: It is difficult for us to guess what will happen, but we see that many members of this government have no experience. They were given a very difficult task for the first time. If they are not efficient, then the government will not be able to deal with many problems. The priority is politics and support for the government, not their abilities. If a Unity Government is to be held, perhaps a person from the opposing party can be elected if he has the expertise, so that there is 'unity' between the government and the opposing party.
Q: The Education Ministry is led by a new face as minister. As a former Education Minister, is this step appropriate when education is among those worst affected by the pandemic?
A: I think our education system is no longer suitable for the times and does not train us to be useful people in society. Many changes need to be made. Whether this new minister has understood the weaknesses in our education system or not, I don't know.
But for me, many things need to be done to adjust the knowledge found in this education system with the possibility that when the student is an adult, they can work using the knowledge they find.
Q: Twice becoming a Prime Minister, what is Tun's biggest regret during the period?
A: When we become Prime Minister, we can make recommendations, but only recommendations without the ability to implement them because our recommendations may be ineffective. For example, if we say the rural population is poor, they need to be enriched. The question is, how to enrich them? If we don't understand, we can't do it. We must have an idea of how to overcome the problem. Just making a policy alone, will not ensure our ideals are produced.
Q: What are the things that have not been achieved during Tun's two terms as Prime Minister?
A: A lot, especially in the fields of education, development, infrastructure and politics. Many things have become outdated since our independence more than 60 years ago. In the beginning, the problem was not that complicated, but now with climate change, various new technologies are introduced and the way of doing business is changing, all this makes the old ways obsolete. We need a new way that fits with the tools we have. I think the new people appointed, I don't know if they have enough knowledge and experience to deal with these new problems.
Q: At the age of 96 and with Tun himself losing, and even losing his deposit in the Langkawi Parliament (Seat Election), there is a view that the time has come for the Tun to retire and sit in the mosque. Is Tun still relevant in the national political arena or has the time come to retire from politics completely?
A: I want to retire from politics. Actually, in 2002, I wanted to resign. I want to retire, but when I retired, a lot of things happened that people don't like. They asked me, whether I can help or not. So with 22 years of experience as Prime Minister, I understood the problems and how to overcome them.
If people ask, can you help? I said 'I'm sorry, I want to rest, I want to go back to the madrasah, I want to pray for the afterlife.' So it seems that I prioritise myself more than my race. I always see the problem of my race as the main thing in my life. So I can't put myself first while my nation may be facing problems. If I have a way to overcome it, it's not good if I prioritise my own interests.